IS Video evidence now invalid ?
Forum » Murder Inc Hosted Games » Everything Battlefield
Joined: 1st Mar 2016
Rank: Registered
Likes 23
26th May 2016

Did Cuban really just invalidate every ban where video was used as evidence ? 

In a Ban appeal post he put "After discussing it with another admin however very fair points were brought up as to why the video didn't show anything other than the known sync issues that spectator mode suffers.

Read more:   http://www.migaming.us/290612/topic/ban-appeal-xnp#ixzz49pIQM4VO

This would mean that any person caught hacking where a video was used as the sole evidence should also be unbanded as all evidence would be inconclusive ? 

It could also be taken the other way in that the reason its hard to catch a hacker on video is because of sync issues and anyone that plays highley susspiciely, (10% head shots, Ridiculously high KDR and such) should be banned regardless of what a video shows. 

Its hard to collect evidence when the evidenced is rejected based on a so called issue.

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Last Edit: 26th May 2016 by EXZODIER
Joined: 21st Jan 2016
Rank: BF Admins
Likes 114
26th May 2016

There was actually a pretty extensive conversation about this very topic. BF4 has lots of issues when it comes to their spectator mode. We have banned players based solely off video evidence, but usually an investigation into that persons stats will be a dead give away. Short clips don't always tell the whole story, and we have all had those crazy shots that surprise us like "how the fuck did I hit that" and someone who is spectating would prolly call complete BS. So to avoid those situations I usually try to record for quite awhile to make sure the proof is conclusive. Sometimes it only takes a min to prove that the guy who is spinning 360s at 100 mph and hip shooting and getting 100% accuracy and 100% HS's is cheating but the people who are good at concealing it usually take more than 20 seconds to prove.



Joined: 17th Jan 2016
Rank: BFLevelTwo
Likes 40
26th May 2016

well ill say this the video is short BUT if you know anything about this game and the way the guns shoot .you take 3 ppl at that the same spots and the one hip shooting the m98b will not dead kill 2 players at that speed that gun does not shoot like that and if you really did look hard at the video like it was told and you really knew what to look for he was shooting at someone threw the smoke that you could not see and someone else killed that person before he could because after the smoke cleared you seen the guy he was shooting at threw the smoke ...laying on the ground ..admins your going to have to look good because noone said he was a stupid hacker just a very smart one but there will be moree videos .just know the way the game plays and the guns shoot before just dismissing something because its no fun havig to record videos just to say all that time is wasted ..back in the day if there was a person that was so suspect as he is the admins took time over and over to spec that person and didnt relay on the players to DO THERE JOB .just saying the admins has all the say but do none of the work when it come to spectating a person any more .i know yall have other stuff going on but alot of time when a admin is just setting in a channel MYBE he should be specking these ppl... sorry for the rant and no disrespect ment but a little admin help would be nice.
Like (1)
Joined: 21st Jan 2016
Rank: BF Admins
Likes 114
26th May 2016

I am currently working 75 hour weeks so pardon if I am unavailable for your beck and call. I spectate players all the time at the request of other players. Some days I am spectating and recording more that I actually get to play.
Maybe I should create a "who I spectated and for how long" log for all the admins to document for your satisfaction?
I know how the game works and how the guns work. Especially the sniper rifles.
It is NOT my job. Every admin is a volunteer and we take our personal time to attempt to help the community to the best of our abilities. There are very long discussions over these topics and each video. They are not watched one time and dismissed on a whim. If he is cheating I'm sure he will be caught, but rants tearing down the very volunteers who are here to assist is not going to encourage them to help.



Joined: 9th Jan 2016
Rank: Key leads
Likes 310
26th May 2016

OK before this starts a fire battle between players. I looked at the video. the first 4 shots are kinda fishy but then after he misses easy shots...


Live every evening around 7 PM EST @ http://www.twitch.tv/cmw_ ... stupidkoala

Joined: 9th Jan 2016
Rank: Key leads
Likes 310
26th May 2016

if he gets back onto our servers(he says he won't anymore...) hit me up in the streaming channel tomorrow i will look him up.


Live every evening around 7 PM EST @ http://www.twitch.tv/cmw_ ... stupidkoala

Joined: 17th Jan 2016
Rank: BFLevelTwo
Likes 40
26th May 2016

like i said no disrespect at all and i know you work at helping hunter. im just saying when a player has to take time to record a video for the admins to look at really that isnt right to ask them not to game when the admins can take turns here and there and spec a person and if thesee something that isnt right they take action right then .and if the person then wants to appeal then the admins asked the banning admin what he seen and thought about the player ..and like ive said NO DISRESPECT TO NO ADMIN AT ALL .
Like (1)
Joined: 18th Jan 2016
Rank: BF Admins
Likes 211
27th May 2016

Quotelike i said no disrespect at all and i know you work at helping hunter. im just saying when a player has to take time to record a video for the admins to look at really that isnt right to ask them not to game when the admins can take turns here and there and spec a person and if thesee something that isnt right they take action right then .and if the person then wants to appeal then the admins asked the banning admin what he seen and thought about the player ..and like ive said NO DISRESPECT TO NO ADMIN AT ALL .
I'll squash that with a nice rebuttal and talk from personal experience...

#1. Players that are suspicious of potential hackers will do everything in their power to ensure that action is taken.
   a. Take me for example, I wasn't an admin for quite a while. Yet I was determined to ensure that other players and myself had an enjoyable time without hackers. I've spent multiple hours on just one player doing my own due diligence to ensure that I actually had something to present, rather than only a video. No one is demanding normal players to spectate other players or due such investigations. However this is a community (think of it as a neighborhood). If you see someone suspicious in your neighborhood or acting suspect like casing vehicles you would probably call the police or inform your neighbors right? Its a group effort, and we can't catch everything and we don't have endless amounts of time to perform "eyes on glass" work all hours of the day to find the really really sneaky cheaters. However with the community's help bringing concerns or evidence to our attention it helps greatly in our investigations as we know what we are looking for instead trying to find a needle in needle stack.

#2. Your entire comment did occur, and we don't publicly disclose or allow the general member base to view these conversations as they could compromise our detection, investigation, and correlation methodologies. As much as I would love for super ultra transparancy its not possible for these kind of communications between administrative members due to the sensitive nature, personal information of the player (IP, GUID, etc.).
   b. We create ban reports of players that are manually banned in such a way that other administrators have a chance to cross-examine evidence, or in this case dispute the evidence which resulted in the ban being invalidated. We don't ban players for being too good.

#3. I have gone to lengths to explain the faults of video evidence in spectator mode.
   c. I have disseminated this information to all administrators about the importance of using spectator mode not as the definitive proof or evidence, due diligence requires us to be extremely granular in our investigations. That being said spectator mode, or user submitted video is still good to have as it can still be used regardless of being glitchy as a stepping stone for a larger investigation.

...




"The quieter you are, the more you are able to hear" ― Ram Dass

Joined: 3rd Apr 2016
Rank: BFLevelOne
Likes 35
27th May 2016

I seriously doubt Vinn hacks. Me, and him play together in a squad, and he misses tons and tons of shots in LAV / Tank - you guys are also forgetting that we are in TS all the time when we play, and we communicate! - most ppl dont understand how much communication helps, when Vinn plays locker or metro he usually is not on the top. We have seen time and time again that there are a lot of good people who play BF4, and dont hack. Morrom, Tusk2112, Twinguns...etc - However I know that BF4 spec mode is broken majorly - I have spec'd some ppl before and to me it seems that everyone is hacking in spec mode. 
Like (3)
Joined: 30th Dec 2015
Rank: Top Administrators
Likes 464
27th May 2016

Yes, you have to be very careful with spectator mode. Primarily, it has a lot of sync issues. It will look like bullets are missing yet the people are dying. It will look like they are firing at nothing and hitting people. We've also seen some weird 'overlays' when switching between weapons/attachments such as FLIR/IRNV in vehicles. Spectator mode is best utilized with someone spectating and someone else in the squad recording to correlate. That makes it so much easier to see some of these problems. We do use video of spectator mode however, we rip every video apart to look for known issues.
Joined: 21st Jan 2016
Rank: Registered
Likes 145
27th May 2016

One of the biggest problems with spectating potential hackers, is the hack itself. As we have found, most pay-to-play hacks tell you when you are being spectated. They will either automatically shut off, or the person will simply not use it while being spectated. This is why you can have someone doing amazingly well, yet as soon as you start spectating, their play goes to shit.
Like (1)


Joined: 21st Jan 2016
Rank: Registered
Likes 145
27th May 2016

Personally, I like to look at the player's graphs. If you see a sudden increase in kpm/spm/etc, then they definitely need attention.
Like (1)


Joined: 17th Jan 2016
Rank: BFLevelTwo
Likes 40
27th May 2016

After all is said and done the only thing im wondering is the admins going to start specing the player we as players asked them to help us with? and holden is dead spot on with what he said ..
Forum » Murder Inc Hosted Games » Everything Battlefield
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